Translation from German: Interview: Chaos, Verschwörung, schwarze Löcher
Interview: Chaos, conspiracy, black holes
Professor Dr. Otto E. Rossler over the dangers of the LHC at the CERN
Interview: Chaos, Verschwörung, schwarze Löcher, Part 1 of 5
The largest particle accelerator of the world, the Large hadron Collider (LHC) of the European organization for nuclear research (CERN), is to help, to experience more over the emergence of the universe. Chaos researcher professor Otto E. Rossler sees a danger for the earth, whose fall he can introduce in the LHC however. Golem.de spoke with Rossler at the edge of the Transmediale, which carry the title “Conspire” in this year. For mankind the scientists at the CERN see however no danger, how a leading scientist of the LHC project explained opposite Golem.de.
It is already quite a while ago that the chaos research made publicly attentive on itself. Also over black holes for a long time nothing more was reported. Both is already nearly normal. But the Transmediale of this year dedicated itself in the citizen of Berlin house of the cultures of the world to the topic of the conspiracy. “Conspire.” is the slogan of this year of the steeped in tradition festival for art and digital culture. With professor Otto E. Rossler the curators invited completely special key note a Speaker to their conference. The habilitierte biochemist, chaos researcher and untiring reconnaissance aircraft in the service of the natural science and art are among other things well-known for it, the Rossler Attraktor to have discovered and the theoretical school of the Endophysik to have justified. Both brings up for discussion natural phenomena, which are only with difficulty understandable with common, rational approaches. A conspiracy within the physical world.
In May this yearly is to begin at the European organization for nuclear research (CERN) one of the most important attempts of physics. The Large hadron Collider (LHC) – the largest particle accelerator of the world – is used to experience by the collision of protons more over the emergence of the universe. Largest hopes lie in it to occupy on the one hand the Higgs mechanism – a theoretical explanation model for asymmetrical behavior of elementary particles – and on the other hand the Hawking’ dematerializing theorem for black holes. The latter in particular would be a sensation, since so far nobody knows exactly, what black holes are real and how they behave. After Hawking they would have to dematerialize directly after their emergence and be thus harmless. But there is not the practical proof for it yet. Rossler states against the fact that black holes do not have to dematerialize necessarily and remain very probably stable could. And that could become quite dangerous.
Golem.de: Mr. professor Rossler, Sie it believes that the experiments with black holes at the CERN could be dangerous. What for is a man behind so a theory? Could you introduce yourselves please briefly?
Professor Otto Rossler: One is always unsympathisch itself. I have several identities. I saw no character scientific. I make everything and am responsible therefore for nothing. Before 35 years I was habilitiert in theoretical biochemistry. That remained also actually my field of activity until today, but it was added then still some. For example the chaos research, which developed only in the course of the time.
Golem.de: How do you define chaos research?
Rossler: That is, if they want, a form of applied mathematics. One concerns oneself there with oscillations. Only that the oscillations are somewhat more complicated. One can get periodic oscillations with two interacting variables with impulse and place. If one adds however still further variables, as for example a pendulum at the swing, then one has already four variables and the condition for chaos. Chaos is thus simply an oscillation possibility of systems, where several particles and variables can interact with one another.
Golem.de: Wherein does the difference between chaos and coincidence lie?
Rossler: These chaotic oscillations have it actually that they are very irregular. They do not repeat themselves only taken in very long periods and strictly at all. That works coincidentally. But if one has the appropriate equation and from different computers with the same computational accuracy and the identical in each case configuration lets compute, then one will produce the same trajectory from the same point of origin always exactly, the same picture, the same movement. Then it is thus no coincidence. One calls it also deterministic chaos. The term comes from Edward Lorenz.
Golem.de: Is there also and term table chaos?
Rossler: With difficulty. Thus if one takes noise in, which is evenly and datistic, then it looks still exactly alike. One can thus hardly differentiate between it. In former times one even meant that it would have to be always disturbed and it has for a long time lasted to one accepted that the coincidence can come also from the inside and is not only added from the outside. But most sadistischen systems are naturally a little disturbed. Then the chaos is mixed with genuine coincidence. Then there is thirdly still the really genuine coincidence of quantum mechanics. That is still much, many coincidentally as the chaos. Wolfgang Pauli calls that the primary coincidence. It is produced behind the world, while the chaos comes in the world still with right things. It is only infinitely sensitive in relation to small changes. But the coincidence behind the world, in the quantum mechanics, which is not so far avowedly.
Niels bore, one of the pioneers of quantum physics, times from a journalist one asked, what quantum mechanics is actually. There has bore it back-asked: “credit it a matchbox in the bag, an empty?” – “no?!” – “”, here is one. Have do they a cube in the bag?” – “no.” – “is here one. Then I can explain to you, what quantum mechanics is. Open the box completely carefully. Do please the cube completely carefully inside. Close it completely carefully and then give you them me completely carefully.” Then it took the box with the cube and turned it completely slowly. Around 180 degrees. Then it vibrated violently and turned back it just as carefully again. Then it gave it to the journalist and said: “now you make the box please completely carefully again on… That is quantum mechanics.” Quantum mechanics is thus the coincidence, which comes behind the back of the world. That is another coincidence than the chaotic coincidence, with which it happens still with right things.
Golem.de: They spoke on the Transmediale in Berlin about the danger of black holes. How do you explain, what a black hole is?
Rossler: A very humorous man, John Wheeler, the famous pupil of Einstein, invented. Its most famous theorem reads: “a black hole does not have hair”. That is, each object, which falls there, loses all its characteristics. Up to three: the mass, the energy and the angular momentum. Wheeler is meanwhile 96 years old. For 50 years it waits on the Nobelpreis. He would have earned it completely surely, but he is always ignored. Why, I do not know.
Golem.de: And now with the experiments in the Large hadron Collider at the CERN is its chance again there?
Rossler: No, he has to do thereby nothing. Although, but! If the world goes down shortly therefore, it with security still fast a Nobelpreis gotten. There you are right.
Golem.de: Thus you fear, the world because of the black holes produced perhaps artificially in the LHC will go down?
Rossler: Yes, at the CERN a machine is built, with which the first time in the history of mankind black holes on earth could be produced. Nobody knows whether it goes. The probability lies about around the 10 per cent.
Golem.de: But how one can build, what for something, from which one does not know exactly at all it at all is?
Rossler: Exactly. One has there so theories, which forecast one that it could go and that it should even go. But completely surely one cannot be thereby. That is with all physical theories like that that one does not check up everything, what it depends on and one gropes so for a long time in the dark, until one catches and then of a realization speaks something!
Golem.de: And how one recognizes that one built a black hole now?
Rossler: Yes, that is a completely important question! It turned out that one cannot find the Dinger at all. Although one produced it. Until it is too late. The Dinger hides itself, because they do not have radiation effect.
Golem.de: But the Hawking theorem to black holes means nevertheless something else.
Rossler: Yes, there is this famous theorem of Stephen Hawking. It set up that in the 70’s-years. Afterwards dematerialize black holes, which means that such micro black holes, how they are to develop in the LHC would verpuffen immediately. This realization be based on the initially mentioned realizations of Wheeler. I can prove however that the objects swallowed by a black hole very probably keep their mass and their angular momentum, their energy however to lose.
Golem.de: They contradict it thus?
Rossler: Yes, it is however very heavy to attack it. Almost the entire scientific community stands behind it. And as the durchoekonomisierte science enterprise today, is larger the power of the consent runs than those the reason.
Golem.de: Do you stand with this opinion alone there?
Rossler: No, there are also different scientists, who say. There are at least two internationally admitted. One is called Bill balance spring from Canada and the other one is called Adam D Helfer from the USA. Both wrote essays, from which it follows that the black holes do not evaporate probably. To only prove they cannot do it. Thus I am my knowledge the only one.
Golem.de: Which danger saves such an artificially generated black hole?
Rossler: The amazing is, no humans believes that that is dangerous. Recently a reader letter was in the magazine picture of the science, now in the January, which commentates the article, which was brought in September over the LHC. It says, which is very interesting that one expects from the experiment so marvelous things here, where still no humans know, what at all thereby comes out. But one knows one against the fact completely reliably that it is harmless! (laughs) that is absurd. One cannot say: I do not know, what comes out, but I know that it is harmless. That aufgespiesst this reader in picture of the science well. This absolutely idiotische Naivitaet of physicists.
Golem.de: But which is the concrete danger? I understood that not yet completely.
Rossler: The danger is that a small black hole forms and then evenly not dematerialized. The probability is quite high that it flies away, but there is a completely small probability that it does not fly away. One wants to produce of it one million per year. Those are enough, in order to say that of it one will not dematerialize completely surely. This would circle then in the earth and occasionally with an elementary particle, an atomic nucleus or a quark would collide and it would up-eat. The question, which remains, is, how long it lasts then, until this small black hole grew sufficient strongly, in order to finally up-eat the whole world. That sounds absurd, is however last end very probable. There is an estimation with BBC Horizon that this 50 million years will last. That is the official Worst Case Scenario. But they forget with the fact that there is chaos and non-linearity. Thus it grows many faster. I came in such a way on a factor of 50 months!
Golem.de: Thus does a black hole function in principle? It eats atoms?
Rossler: Yes, it can only eat, it can not decrease, it is, it can dematerialize, but I broken-made, unfortunately that. Growth functioned thereby similarly as money by the interest and compound interest on the financial market increases. That happens also not linear, but exponentially.
Golem.de: The remedy would be another black hole?
Rossler: No, there is no remedy. The thing is hopeless, after 50 months the earth on a centimeter would have shrunk. It would be nothing more there, not only no more life, there but also the earth would be away, only their weight would be – as small black hole.
Golem.de: What happens, if two black holes meet one on the other?
Rossler: Unite. Then there is a larger. There there is also a theorem, again from Hawking, which mentioned that black holes can grow in each case, they cannot remove. It set up that, before it discovered dematerializing. Dematerializing negated this theorem as it were then. There it was no longer good as as before. Naja, is correct not completely, it later also still different good things made, but in the case the first theory was better than the later.
Golem.de: But a black hole is not a real hole, but it is subject, only strongly consolidated?
Rossler: A black hole is as it were a so strongly compressed subject. So strongly that even the light can no longer away. There is there the black sign in such a way specified radius, which Karl black sign, a friend of Einstein discovered. It means that according to the Einstein theory there is a compression diameter, which is so strong for each mass that even the smallest mass tightens locally so strongly that the light of it cannot no more. Besides can be assigned still somewhat on it. It lasts however eternally, until it arrives there. And one knows that the light, which ascends from the edge of a black hole is not only infinitely red-shifted, thus in its wavelength slowed down and/or increased is, but that it needs also infinitely for a long time, until it comes out. One knows. But one believes strangely enough, a body could fall there in finite time, although the light needs infinitely for it… One does not see already, there is correct somewhat. There participates a calculation error. The error is however already 90 years old. Therefore it is improbable that the science accepts in the short term that it exists. Because it like that blamabel is.
Golem.de: Do black holes have actually such an enormously large attraction, how it is often implied straight in Science Fiction films?
Rossler: Those have exactly the same attraction, as each mass of the same size. Thus if the earth were a black hole with scarcely a centimeter of diameters, then the attraction would be unchanged. The moon would circle exactly the same around this point like now around the earth, because this point would be just as heavy as the earth.
CERN holds dangers for very small
Professor Otto Rossler addresses the CERN in Switzerland with his statements directly. Golem.de inquired therefore with Michelangelo Luigi Mangano, a leading scientist in the LHC project, which position takes the CERN for the position of the critic.
Golem.de: Which hopes lie in the attempt to create black holes with the LHC?
Michelangelo Mangano (CERN): First it is the principal purpose to examine with the Large hadron Collider the Higgs mechanism – a theoretical explanation model for asymmetrical behavior of elementary particles -. But we will naturally try to take most out of the LHC. If it is possible to generate and then examine black holes, we will do that naturally. However we do not talk here about black holes, how they are described by Einstein or Hawking – thus those, which we can observe as extinguished star in the universe. In addition one braeuchte 10 to the power of 16 times more energy than we at the CERN for the order has. We talk here about microscopically small black holes, from which there are so far only theoretical models, we thus at all do not know whether they exist at all.
If we discover it however with our attempts, then it would prove that our universe consists not only of four dimensions (three space dimensions plus the time), but of many more dimensions. This would revolutionize the perception of our environment! Think only of pagings in the philosophy and art, which caused relativity theory! That would be a sensation! Similarly the Phoeniziern, the magnetism had discovered and owing to the compass their ships to thus navigate more surely could – without however to know that they had discovered thereby the condition for electricity and our modern civilization.
Golem.de: Why do you that it is not dangerous think, for creating black holes?
Mangano: We are conscious us of the concerns, which circulate in the public. The CERN will publish a brochure in approximately one month to the topic. We have here all family, friends, children and used and we them to danger would never expose. We concerned ourselves here very intensively with these questions. it believes 99.99 per cent of my colleagues that the black holes will dematerialize. We accept nothing the defiance in the publication mentioned that they could remain stable. But even then they should be harmless: Black holes move very fast. Thus they would travel through theoretically directly by the earth. Black holes behave a little like the electrically neutral neutrino. They react only very slowly and can fly by several thousand kilometers iron, before they collide at all with somewhat. Those, which would be somewhat slower and were caught by the gravitational pull of the earth, remained existing in the earth core and could actually subject take up. But they became after 5 billion years – the time, until the sun expires – only a few kilograms weigh.
Golem.de: From where do you know that?
Mangano: If they would react more strongly, there would be no neutron stars in the universe. The universe is fully with cosmic rays, thus high-energy jets, which develop with the explosion of stars. One can observe these from the earth. Most of these jets have a substantially higher energy than we in the LHC ever producing could. Thus if the LHC can create black holes, these jets can do it also. Besides it can be observed that each neutron star, which we discovered in the universe, by a large number of such cosmic rays were already bombarded and with black holes be therefore full could. Neutron stars have however a much higher density. The subject there is 10,000 Millarden mark more closely than in the earth, why a black hole – if it would actually cause damage – 10 billion time “eat such a star faster” and would destroy quasi immediately. We know however from neutron stars, which are years old 100 million.